08 MayEpisode 59 | Separation Anxiety Expert Malena DeMartini on Helping Dogs Learn To Be Alone

Transcript:

 

**Music**

Annie:
I'm thrilled today to be interviewing Malena DeMartini. She is an expert in treating dogs with separation anxiety. She is the author of the book, Treating Separation Anxiety in Dogs, a book I’ve recommended so many times, I think I should be getting a commission on the royalties. Malena is a superstar in the world of dog training, so we might as well consider this a celebrity interview. On an important topic: the topic of helping dogs learn to be okay being left alone.

But before I play you this interview, I did want to mention that we have been offering, free 30 minute virtual sessions with clients, the School for the Dogs’s trainers have been doing this since quarantine started but we are only going to be offering these sessions for one more week, so if you have yet to sign up for a free 30 minute session with one of our certified trainers, you absolutely should. We can help with problems that you have been facing during quarantine or maybe things you were wanting to deal with before quarantine, we can also help you find some fun things with your dog during this time that you are very likely spending more time together than ever. But that offer ends next Friday, May 15 so definitely book now and also if you are not aware, we have been offering free, daily webinars which you can learn more about at schoolforthedogs.com/webinars. They’ve been on a wide array of topics, we have gotten really great feedback and we also have the replays available for a limited time at that same link: schoolforthedogs.com/webinars. So if you’ve missed one, it is more likely there.

This interview I did with Malena is an abridged version of a webinar we did earlier this week that I will link to in the show notes. So the way I have edited this interview, it starts with a bit of a soliloquy from me about how I discovered Malena, but you will hear from her if you can stick through my little story for the first couple minutes. And I should prefaced it also by saying the case I am reviewing to here is probably the most serious separation anxiety I had come in contact with at that point and probably one of the last separation anxiety case because, like many trainers, I am not a fan of dealing with dogs who have separation anxiety which comes in this interview- why so many dog trainers shy away from this problem. But I believe it is such an important problem to address and I think one of the reasons that Malena is such a super star is that she has tackled this kind of gooey, yucky issue that dog trainers don’t like to handle with so much grace and have given so many dog trainers a roadmap- so many dog trainers and so many dog owners, a roadmap of how to deal with problem that can be so terrible and terrifying, both for dogs and the people who love them. 

**Music*

Annie:
Malena, I want to tell you how I first discovered you and then, and then I, I want to hear your background, how you got into dog training. But,I just wanted to, to share that the first time I guess I saw you speak, I think it was at Clicker Expo. It was a Clicker Expo in Washington state I think in 2013. 

Malena:
Oh wow. That was a long time ago. 

Annie:
And um, I was so just excited and inspired by your talk, which was about separation anxiety. And at the time, I had been working with a client with a senior rescue dog who was very, uh, just very stressed out, kind of, like hardly eating and  just, just a really difficult, difficult case and a very frustrated owner. And we had gotten up to maybe leaving the dog alone for 20 seconds.And um, I just could tell she was having a hard time and I was having a hard time and I was really inspired by your talk. And I remember the reason I remember it was in Washington State particularly, ‘cause it was this long plane ride home. I remember just sort of meditating on your talk and the case with Kate the whole time and, you know, saying to Kate like, I really want to help this client. And you know, like, I feel so empathetic for dogs who experience this kind of anxiety. And maybe this is like what my specialty could be. I was just like so turned on and I wrote the client from the plane and said, “I've been thinking about you and I want to be there to help. And, um, you know, I understand, you know, how much it could mean to just have a coach when you're dealing with separation anxiety and, and you know, like, let's figure out how we can do this together.” And she lived near NYU, so I was like, we know we can find some students, maybe could even help and be with your dog. 

And, I didn't hear back until a few days later, she wrote back and she was like, “your method is too slow. I'm going to use a shock collar.”

Malena:
Oh no. I was waiting for the inspirational moment!

Annie:
And I just felt so deflated. And then, and of course the punchline is like six months later, I mean, punchline, it's like such a sad story. But the punchline was six months later she wrote, she's like, “Hey, I don't know if you remember me, but uh, my dog, like, is trying to bite me now whenever I come near him.” And I was ike, oh, I could have, I could have predicted this future. Anyway, so all of that is to say that I think separation anxiety is such an important thing to address and I appreciate that you break it down so much. And I can't tell you how many clients I've had. I did not go on to specialize in separation anxiety, but I so appreciate those who do, and I tell so many of my clients, over the years, I've told so many people to buy your book because I think while it can be so useful to have a dog trainer help you and, and really be there every step of the way, if you're dealing with separation anxiety, it's expensive. And so I always tell people-first things, first before you go for the one-on-one attention is read this book and see what you can do and let's go from there. So all of that is to say that, um I have so much respect for your work and I would love to hear how you first got into dog training

Malena:
Really quick. I want to address that it really is my, my goal, my mission, my passion to get the word out there so that dogs don't end up in the hands of the shock collar trainers like that. 

Annie:
Right. 

Malena:
It is a slow process. But if we can normalize that for people, say, this is why it's a slow process because your dog is experiencing a panic attack when left alone. Uh, I mean, could you go,, you know, if you were having panic attacks and you know, anxiety and depression and you went and decided to go and see a counselor or a therapist, could you say, I'd like this fixed in a week, please. You know, I mean, like you couldn’t and they'd be like, uh, you're in the wrong place right now. And so it takes, it takes a while to deal with fears and phobias and anxiety issues

Annie:
And it's a big ask because when you think about the culture we live in, we live in a pop of pill and fix-it world. We do a disservice to dogs when we don't, or really to anybody, 

Malena:
Anybody, any breathing beings 

Annie:
When we don't first talk about how we can change the environment. But anyway,

Malena:
But anyway, I actually was in corporate America for a really long time. I worked as a statistician, so I have that whole, you know, one side of my brain and the other side of my brain thing and you know, the mathematical side and then the very creative and sort of compassionate side. Um, I won't get into the nitty gritty of the story, but I will say this, I had a beautiful dog, a dog named Maverick, may he forever be my little angel that looks over me from the heavens. And, he died as a result of my insufficient training. You know, like many people, I did not understand that positive reinforcement was, I didn't even know it existed. And I was using a punishment based trainer to help me train him. And the one thing that he was unable to help me with, uh, was a recall.

We could not install a recall on my dog and I wasn't using any collar or anything like that, but, um, but we just, you know, he, he just was willy nilly about his recall. And then finally the trainer that I was working with, said, “Ok, we're going to start using these throw chains.” This is sort of way back in the day, right? This is, gosh, almost 30 years ago. And he was like, we're going to, if he doesn't come, we're going to throw these heavy chains at him. Why would a dog come to you if you threw heavy chains on him? My God, how was I so not understanding and seeing that, but as soon as he threw that first chain, I was like, I'm out. This is, this is not okay. This is really inhumane. And so I thought to myself, well, he'll just never learn to recall, so he'll be on a leash for the rest of his life kind of thing and you know, or a long line or whatever. And one day I, I, um, had a bunch of guests over to my hands and I had big signs everywhere. “Do not leave gate open, do not leave gate open. Dog may get out,” you know, this kind of thing. But of course..

Annie:
 You were attempting to train the people..

Malena:
I was attempting, uh, unsuccessfully. And we, as we all know, management is never a hundred percent. There's always a management failure, no matter how hard we try. Right? Someone just says, “Oh, I opened the gate and I forgot my purse back in the car. I'm just gonna run over there and grab it” and there, that's all it takes for a dog to slip out. Uh, he slipped out. Uh, I noticed it almost immediately. I called and called and called and his recall was actually the opposite of a recall. It was like, ha, chase me, chase me.And uh, he ran into the street and got hit full on by a car. 

Annie:
God, I'm so sorry. 

Malena:
It was probably one of the most, you know, difficult experiences that I've ever gone through. Uh, and the guilt that consumed me over that was phenomenal. I truly, I didn't know a better way at the time. And I took time away from corporate and I said, I've got to do something else. And I think I have to do something to help dogs and help people so that stuff like this doesn't happen cause it shouldn't have to happen. And I was living in San Francisco and I stumbled across, literally, like I knew nothing about the dog training industry. I literally stumbled across Jean Donaldson's Academy for Dog Trainers. And I was like, oh, maybe I'll try this thing out. Like not even knowing, you know, how profound it was that it was in my neck of the woods in my virtual backyard.

Uh, and it was a life changing experience for me. Not only did it teach me and put me on a fully different trajectory for my career, but it made me a better human being because I understood how punishment and reinforcement works in all animals. And so I started treating people very differently too.

Annie:
Wow. Yeah. 

Malena:
And so I feel like, uh, you know, that was a profound change in my life. And so that's, that's where I started out. And, uh, I'm still a statistical geek, but I much prefer to put my statistics towards working with dogs and tracking all sorts of data that, uh, happens when we are, when we're working with dogs almost from the applied behavior analysis perspective. Right?

Annie:
Wow. I think all the time how crazy it is that don't all get a semester of behavioral science at school or for an hour.

Malena:
I think that's insane because it is, it's transformational-not just for our dogs and our cats and our horses and our rabbits and our whatever, but just in the way we communicate with people.

Annie:
Yeah, absolutely. And I had a similar experience finding KPA kind of on a whim. I think I could have just as easily gone to a dog training school where they would have had me do very different kinds of things. But I found the Karen Pryor Academy, out of luck and I just felt like, oh, this is the way the world is supposed to be. Like, I can't control the whole world around me, but I can control so much about my dog's life in a way that could make his life better. And that makes so much sense. Like why did I not know about this?

Malena:
Right. How did I not know about this in like the third or fourth grade.

Annie:
Yeah. Yeah. And I wish it was part of schools' curriculums because I think it would make us a better world. And it's so crazy to me that like that dog training is, I think for many people similarly, um, it can be so transformative. Like, I never would've thought that dog training would affect my entire worldview to the point of it being like, you know, my, like, philosophy and religion of choice. Like I would have been, that is a crazy person, 10 years ago or more, whatever, 15 years ago, that is who I am. 

So you went to, you were lucky enough to go to Jean Donaldson's program and um, what made you… it's interesting that you talk about being like a numbers nerd because I could see how that could help you if you're working with someone who’s dog has separation anxiety. So tell me how you, how you began this, this specialty.

Malena:
Well, I mean, and I always tell people, separation anxiety chose me, I did not choose it because who in their right mind would choose separation anxiety as a specialist to you? Right? I understand how slow it is and how hard it is and how challenging it is for both, for all three: the dog, the client and the trainer. And, for that matter, the veterinarian or anybody else that's, you know, in that triage relationship of working with a separation anxiety dog. But I had graduated from the Academy, I think I was only a few days post-graduation. And at that time it was still a brick and mortar, um, school and so the San Francisco SPCA would refer things out to their graduates and I got a call, I literally got a call and the woman said, “Hi, I got your name and number from the SPCA in San Francisco and I really need some help.” 

And I was like, oh great. And I was, actually, I remember this so well, I was with a colleague of mine and we were walking around Target. I remember talking to this woman, so specifically, her dog is named Guinness. And um, she said, “my dog has separation anxiety and we adopted them, you know, however long ago. And we just started having all sorts of problems whenever we try to leave him alone.” And I was really transparent with her and I said, “gosh, you know, I'm, I'm a, I'm a really green trainer. And while I understand the principles of working with separation anxiety, I think that I'd rather you find someone that,you know, is a little more seasoned than I am.” And she burst into tears and she said, “okay, bllehh.” You know, crying. She said, “ that's fine, but if you give me, um, some names, will you, do you know that they will actually take on separation anxiety because you are the seventh trainer that I've called and none of them are willing to work with separation anxiety.”

And she was, she was bawling. I mean, it struck me so hard because I thought-  the thing I thought was, this is a resilient woman that is advocating for her dog and she's not giving up. She's going to find someone that's going to help her with this problem. The second thing that I thought was, I would probably give her two or three names and they would not help her because I didn't know anybody back then that was working with separation anxiety. So I said, “I am happy to help you, but I want you to know that we're going to kind of learn about this process, you know, together. And as long as you're okay with that and you're okay with me punting to a behaviorist or someone else, if we run into trouble,  I'm happy to support you.” And she was, like, so happy and whatever it was, you know, it was really lovely.

So I started working with them. Um, and I remember back then trying to make it as fun as possible because separation anxiety training is not particularly fun. You know, it's certainly not like teaching tricks or anything. Um, but we used to tell Guinness to go to the pub and the pub was his little area that he would stay in when he, you know, Guinness obviously being the beer.

Annie:
Genius. I love it. 

Malena:
And he would go to his pub and we made fairly swift progress and I was like, wow, check me out. I'm a superstar. I'm fixing separation anxiety. Well, turns out retrospectively looking at that case, Guinness had only been adopted, or actually I'd been found at a desolate parking lot, and he was grungy and grimey and not in great medical condition and so forth.And so it turns out he probably would have recovered quite on his own once he acclimated to this new home. 

The second separation anxiety case that I took, crashed and burned- full on leg nose dive, terrible results. I was like, what am I doing wrong? I did the same thing that I did with Guinness, but at that point, what was happening is that people in the- San Francisco Bay Area is a pretty close knit environment. And you know, people heard, “Oh, Malena did a great job with the separation anxiety case, let's refer to her.”  And I was starting to get flooded with these cases. And I thought, okay, I could do the same thing that most people were doing with Guinness's mom and say, here you go, here's two or three more names. Good luck with that. Or I could start to research and try and open up my, you know, thoughts about how we could help these dogs. And so with every client that I got, honestly, for the first, I don't know, three to five years, I was like, I just want you to know we're going to try various things. I don't know exactly just what, what will fix it for your dog. I just want to be transparent because I'm not really sure. And I was charging virtually nothing at the time too, because I didn't feel qualified to charge a tremendous amount. Um, so I learned case after case after case after case. And you know, those first two cases turned into 10 and 10 turned into, you know, 50 and 50 turned into a couple of hundred. And I mean, I've been working now for 20 years with separation anxiety cases and I've seen hundreds and hundreds of dogs. And the wonderful thing about working with separation anxiety is that every dog is an individual. Every case is unique in their environment. Every owner and the guardians are always, you know, different in how they work and how they deal with things. And so, like I said, boy it did not, uh, come up as a choice for me to work with separation anxiety. It really chose me. 

Annie:
So here's a super basic question. What is separation anxiety? 

Malena:
That's a super basic question, but it's not as basic as one might think. Um, I'm so glad you asked because I think it's really important for the general public, obviously trainers, but even just the dog guardians of the universe to realize that separation anxiety is truly akin to many fears, phobias and panic issues. You know, some people are afraid of flying, some people are afraid of public speaking, some people are afraid of heights. And some dogs are afraid of being alone. And one of the things that all of these fears, phobias and anxieties have in common is that to the observer, they seem irrational, right? I'm afraid of spiders and I'm serious, like the most minuscule spider, I'm like, husband saved me from, you know, a one millimeter spider and that's obviously irrational, but it's not irrational to me. 

Annie:
Yeah. I notice always when with people, whenever you hear what someone else is anxious about, it always seems silly, right? It's like, how could you be like that? Whatever your example is, it almost always seems, seems ridiculous.

Malena:
Until it's your own personal anxiety and then you're like, there's nothing ridiculous about this whatsoever.I remember I was talking to a client, or a potential client one time, and I was using the example of, well, let's say you were afraid of snakes. And she said, “you know what, actually, can we not talk about snakes?” She's like, “I'm so deathly afraid of snakes” that, and I remember feeling that same thing. Like that is just the dumbest, you know, fear ever. Cause how often do you come across snakes, you know, if you go to a vivarium or something maybe, but you know, and she was living in a very urban area where she was not coming across snakes. And I thought, wow, but then I thought about my own spider phobia and I was like, oh, I really want people to know that these are intrinsic genetic heredity, heritable fears, right? They come built in and there's a reason that people have these insane snake phobias, even though they've never encountered a snake in their life, genetically, eons ago, there was a reason to be afraid of snakes.

Annie:
Yes. You know, there's a book, um, I'll think of the name of the book in a second, but where it talked about how, oh, I think it's the Zoobiquity. Have you heard of the Zoobiquity movement?

Malena:
Interesting, no I haven’t. 

Annie:
There's this whole movement of vets and doctors working together in order to mine each other's knowledge, basically.

Malena:
Oh, I’m all over this, I can’t wait to look into this.

Annie:
I think it was in the book Zoobiquity would be where they explained how some people are actually afraid of eating and it's not, it doesn't necessarily have to do with getting fat, but that some people actually have a fear of eating. And if you think about it for many millennia, for us, if we were getting food, we were also at risk of becoming someone's food. Right? So it actually, kind of, makes sense that something to be fearful of. You know, one time we had a dog we were working with who was scared of flags waving overhead, like such a random fear, but you know, probably some wolf ancestors of his, you know, it would've made sense if they were scared of a noise of something rattling above them.

Malena:
Sure. Yeah. That means some sort of avian prey animal.

Annie:
And being alone is something that humans can understand being scared of.

Malena:
Absolutely. Absolutely. And, uh, and so it is, as irrational as it seems to us because we're like, I always come back, my dog should know this by now. Well, yeah, I'm of an age that I should have figured out by this many years of my life that spiders aren't going to kill me, but I haven't. 

Annie:
So what is separation anxiety? It's a natural fear.

Malena:
It is that. It actually, it is genetically required in some ways because puppies, if they are, you know, for some reason threatened or separated from the litter and they are in a situation where they don't have the mom or the dad or the other puppy siblings to be able to help protect them there's a reason, a heredity reason, that they vocalize, that they urinate or defecate and even that they start, you know, creating, ripping stuff up to appease their concern and spread their scent so that they can be relocated. So actually inherently puppies have, sort of, a version of separation anxiety when they come out of the box and they're supposed to, they're supposed to. Now the problem is when they go from puppyhood and start to move forward, it’s important that they have this predisposition, but when they don't, um, gradually learn that safety,when alone is okay. It’s problematic.

Annie:
That's such an interesting, such an interesting way to put it. When, is there a formula that we could give our clients to tell them when something is or isn't separation anxiety or is it an art? 

Malena:
You mean from puppyhood?

Annie:
Well, yeah, I mean I think sometimes people will say their puppy has separation anxiety wher, I think that seems like an extreme term. But then again, like who am I to, who am I to judge anyone else's anxiety.

Malena:
Sure. Right. I love that you asked this question because I am so much of a proponent of, if your dog is showing whatever signs of distress, however mild or moderate or severe in appearance when left alone, when, you know, we're specifically talking about being left alone here. I feel very strongly that it is really worthwhile to give them a soft place to land and to go through the motions of teaching them that alone time is safe. A lot of dogs, probably the majority of dogs, end up crying it out and then they learn that, oh well, I guess nothing's wrong, but do we have to let them cry it out? Do we have to let them go through all that distress before they learn that nothing bad happens when I'm alone. We can teach them that, in gradual increments and keep them from ever experiencing that extreme distress or even in mild distress, which we know physiologically and psychologically can be damaging in the long run.

Annie:
What I try and to explain to people is that the behavior of, for instance, scratching at the door or crying, chewing on the couch, the behavior might go away but if you haven't addressed the underlying issue, it's likely that, uh,  it's going to come out a different hole in the colander.

Malena:
Well, you nailed it when you told me your opening story. That barking, I'm guessing, that dog- that was separation anxiety that you were working with that, that dog probably didn't bark anymore, but now he's biting people. And that's also an adjunct of punishment use, but unless. And it's interesting that you say this too, because a lot of people contact us and they say, “Oh my gosh, my dog is barking when I leave him. Um, and I'm gonna, you know, the landlord sent me a letter, I don't know what to do, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I need the barking to stop.” Well, I know you needed the barking to stop, but in order to get the barking to stop in a humane manner with the dog's welfare intact, we need to address the anxiety, not the barking.

Annie:
Also, and I'm guessing this has come up probably many times in your career, sometimes the dog you have is not the dog that's right for your life. That is a really difficult thing as a dog trainer to say to a client. And I've only had to say that a few times and I check myself because it's such a scary thing to say because everybody thinks every problem should have a solution in every situation. But frankly, I think there are some dogs who need to live with someone who's going to be home a lot of the time. Just like some dogs shouldn't, should not live on a busy street. Some dogs shouldn't be in a major city. Some dogs shouldn't have to, you know, climb three flights of stairs.

Malena:
Right. Right. Although, you know, to your point though, because I know the kind of bond that I create with the dogs that are in my life, you know, if someone is in love with the dog that is wrong for their life kind of thing..

Annie:
Maybe they need to change their life.

Malena:
They need to change their life potentially. And I don't mean, those don't even have to be tremendous, you know, horrifying, you know, scary, big changes. Um, but, boy if anybody and everybody here learns this one thing today – separation anxiety is an issue that can be fixed. It's not going to happen fast. It's not going to happen overnight.

Annie:
So tell me a little bit about, tell me a little bit about your process because um, for those of you who are here who are not familiar with Malena, um, you've been working remotely with clients for a long time and I'd love to hear more about your process with working with people and also I would like to hear about your new course, but tell me about, about how it works if somebody signs up with you after they've read your book. I hope that should be, that should be step one. 

Malena:
Well speaking of the book..

Annie:
…which is called,

Malena:
which is called Training Separation Anxiety in Dogs. Uh, but..

Annie:
I like, I like when things aren't like cutesy in titles by the way, I like how you just get to the point

Malena:
I thought about a cutesy title. I’m glad I didn’t go with it. 

Annie:
No, I like it. This is what this book is about. Does not need a subtitle. 

Malena:
Yeah. Uh, I have a new book coming out late this year, and it is basically the advancement, uh, the advanced protocols and techniques and principles for separation anxiety because I have learned a lot the last, you know, handful of years since that book came out. So it's going to be, I hope, a big eye opener for a lot of people. 

Annie:
So somebody wants to work with you. What's their number one? What happens? What's the process? 

Malena:
Okay. So what happens, and I've been doing remote training since about 2008. And the reason it struck me as important to do, is that in the beginning I used to go over to people's houses, meet with them, talk with them, meet the dog, et cetera. And then I would log my huge eight millimeter tape camera with me -that's how long I've been doing this. And I would leave my video camera at their house and I would ask them to video every time they did the exercises that I asked them to do. Well, one of the main things that was so inefficient about that process was that I would go at the end of the week and collect these tapes and then watch, retrospectively, what the dog was doing. What happened in 2008 was we had the appropriate technology, I think we had it earlier than that, I just wasn't savvy enough to use it. Uh, we had the appropriate technology to be able to watch dogs live. And it was a game changer for separation anxiety. Let me tell you, because before I would collect those tapes, then I'd say, Oh, we undershot or we overshot. Oh, we pushed too hard. Oh, we didn't push enough. And so we were constantly bouncing around trying to get it right and the poor dog was clueless during the process, right? And then I started to use technology and I realized we can watch that dog live and we can adjust literally in the moment if we need to. It became revolutionary, truly, I think for separation anxiety dogs and the difference in our success rates was pretty crazy and phenomenal.

Annie:
Wow. You know, it goes back to dog training: you started to be able to give feedback with a lot better timing.

Malena:
Absolutely. That's exactly, that's a perfect, perfect way to say it. Timing is everything in dog training or in communications, et cetera. And the way that we work now, we do an initial assessment live online with our clients.

Annie:
So with the initial assessment assessment, are they sending you videos? Is it, is it a call over Zoom or whatever? 

Malena:
It’s a call over Zoom and we spend, you know, an hour or more with the client and explaining what, you know, everything about separation anxiety. And then we say, okay, I'm going to have you leave in the normal manner within which you leave and I'm going to have your text at the ready and I'm going to call you back as soon as I have seen what I need to see. And for some dogs that is like 10 seconds. And for other dogs, that's 10 minutes.

Annie:
Okay, wait, so hold on. Do they usually send you footage of the dog beforehand then? Not required to?

Malena:
Not a lot of people do.So our first, our very first session when people contact us, our very first session is a phone call and we just explain what we do, how we do it, and you know, if they're interested then, then we go, we go forward.

Annie:
So you sit down with someone and it's like a video call. Then you have the people leave the room while your video is still going, you're watching the dog, and then you text or call the person and say, okay, I've seen enough come back in.

Malena:
Exactly. That's exactly right. In my opinion, that is the last time that that dog needs to go through any sort of distress. And we do not, it's not like I say, okay, leave for 30 minutes and we'll see. We'll watch your dog screaming for, you know, 28 of those, you know, it's typically like, I need to see where that panic point is because if the dog panics at one second, I don't need to see anymore. If the dog doesn't panic at one second and it doesn't start to even whine until five minutes, well I'd like to see a little more to see if we don't have to start out so, so, so, so gradually

Annie:
There's something kind of funny about your job, which is like you watch people's dogs while they leave their houses. 

Malena:
It is kind of funny, isn’t it?

Annie:
What did you do today? Well, I watched this person's dog in their living room 

Malena:
Exactly while I was sitting at my computer. 

Annie:
While their people pretended to go out. 

Malena:
Exactly. It is kind of funny. 

Annie:
So then when people come back and do you suggest a program? Do you outline, you know, I want to work with you, this many times over this much of a period.

Malena:
So what we do, which I think is one of the things that differentiates us from a lot of people out there. We go ahead with, you know, assuming, of course, that we see that the dog has separation anxiety and that the folks want to work with us. What we do is we work with people five days a week and we start them off on a four-week commitment. And we, when I say five days a week, what that entails is, we want them to take two days off a week and this can be consecutive or split it, it's not important particularly we will, we write out those exercises for the clients and then they observe their dog because we have technology like Zoom and you know, external cameras and things like that where they can watch their dog while they're doing those exercises from their phone if they want to. And they create some notes and based on those notes, we create the very next day’s set of exercises and we call those missions, their mission for the day, if you will. And then once a week, we meet them again, live and watch their dog. I do want to mention that four weeks is not a magic number. Most dogs are not fixed in four weeks, with their separation anxiety. But it allows us to start building a foundation.

Annie:
What is the number one thing that you recommend to people, when they're first dealing with trying to, um, to help their dogs be alone?

Malena:
The number one thing is, and I'm not, I know that this is hard, but creativity plays a big role in this – the number one thing, and certainly now in our challenging times with COVID, is to create a contract with your dog that says, “I'm not going to leave you alone for longer than you can handle while I do this training.” That doesn't necessarily need to be the individual owner, it can be a friend, a neighbor, a college student, as you mentioned earlier, it could be daycare or you know, other paid resources. But just that during that training, that dog is not going to be alone for longer than he or she can handle. And what that does, it's actually a two-sided contract. So you're saying I'm not gonna, I'm not going to put you in a situation that makes you feel unsafe because the moment you're in a situation that makes you feel unsafe, my training is going to break down, but there's the other side of the contract too: the dog is basically making their side of the contract by saying, I'm not going to bark, pee, poop, destroy staff, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, because I feel faith now. I am not, you're only leaving me for one minute or five minutes or 17 minutes or whatever it is, that is still safe for me and so I'm not going to mess with your house.

Annie:
My two action steps, the way I think of it, when I'm working with clients who have separated, who’s dogs have separation anxiety. First of all, I tell people to stop thinking about it as their dog and to start thinking about it as a dog that they need to help and that means reaching out beyond themselves. This isn't my dog and only I am the one who can help because when you have a dog with separation anxiety, like you've been saying, you can't let the dog have a panic attack. It needs to be like you're never going to have a panic attack again after right now. Because every time your dog has a panic attack, it's like the groove in its brain of panic attacks is getting worn in. 

Like, like I was saying with that client who I did not have success with, I was saying, look, you live near NYU let's find some teenagers to come over and be with their dog. I know people who get their dogs groomed every week just because it's like they need somewhere, someone who will watch their dogs.

Malena:
That’s right.

Annie:
Also think about dog walking as not something- you can hire a dog walker to not walk your dog. Like you could hire a dog walker to just be with your dog. Actually, at School for the Dogs, we call our dog walking service, we call it buddying because it's not always about walking.

Malena:
Oh I love that.

Annie:
Sometimes it's about just needing companionship, needing a warm body. So that's the one, my number one suggestion is just to think about, think about who can help and why you need people to help. The other thing I suggest is to think about when you're feeding your dog. If you want your dog to feel good about being alone, it might be helpful to help your dog create good associations with being alone. And this more applies to people who are not dealing with separation anxiety, but we are trying to prevent separation anxiety. If you're feeding your dog and then leaving the room, your dog is going to have better associations with you leaving the room- your dog probably doesn't need to have more good associations with you being in the room, but you want to be like, it's great when I see his back because when the human leaves the room, that means I get my really good stuff.

Malena:
I will say that there are pitfalls and I don't want to, you know, derail our discussion to go into those. But there are pitfalls with using food as the associative property. Because a lot of dogs won't eat when someone walks out of the room.

Annie:
True.

Malena:
A lot of dogs will eat, but we'll still be conflicted or nervous about consuming their dinner or their Kong or their whatever. Uh, I always liken it to, if I'm depressed or anxious or worried, I can happily cry through my bowl of mint chip ice cream. And that doesn't, you know, it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm not feeling those anxious feelings. 

Annie:
I guess I think about it more in terms of like puppies, when you're working on socialization and you're trying to help them make associations with all the things you want them to know about, of course, you want your dog to feel good about being around you. And you know, you should be giving your dog lots of treats and praise and play and all things that they associate with you. But when you're feeding your dog, if it's not a bad idea to help your dog associate you not paying attention to him

Malena:
That's right. That's beautiful. But typically for puppies, yeah.

Annie:
Um, and another thing that I suggest with, with people who have puppies, especially who don't have like a long history of being, of having these panic attacks is to like mix up your routine when you're leaving the house so that, you know, you're not, you're not always picking up your keys, putting on your shoes and going out, but that's sometimes, you know, you pick up your keys and then go sit on the couch and watch TV or so that your dog doesn't have these predictors that is stressing them out long before long before you leave. 

So you said you normally work with clients for a month contract. Do you have clients who keep you then on, on like retainer for years or do you usually have, I mean, is this like, is this like therapy where you just keep going?

Malena:
On occasion it is- it's variable. And so when people ask me, you know, and it's a very common question and it's an appropriate one, um, why, you know, they'll say, “how long will it take to get my dog over separation things” And the only definitive answer that I can give people is to say, think in terms of months, not weeks. 

Annie:
Okay, fair enough. 

Malena:
Because, you know, for some dogs, it could be just a couple of months. For other dogs, it could be a year or more.  As we know, anxiety is really, really challenging for all sorts of different mammals. Right? And for some, they can learn really well and really quickly and learn that absences are safe. And for others the learning process is just a slower process for them because they're just riddled with anxiety all the time.

So the course for professionals, uh, is, um, side note, was not something that I ever even thought of doing. But when I was telling you about how I got into separation anxiety and then how I started getting all these referrals, I got to a point where I was like, I need another trainer to work with me, but I don't know anybody that I can refer to you that does the things the way that I do them. And so I was recommended to hire an apprentice and then I thought, “oh my gosh, I'm so busy that apprentice is going to be, you know, their dance card is going to be full in a couple of weeks.”  And then someone said, “well, maybe you hire two apprentices.” And then I went, well, if I've got to train two apprentices, maybe I should train several. And I never in a million years thought I would train more than a couple of people. And here we are a couple of years later, you know, over a hundred people all over the world.

Annie:
That's really how we started our professional program also, was we needed more trainers and we realized that the best way to get more trainers was to train them ourselves. Um, but you also have a program for clients? 

Malena:
That's right. 

Annie:
And what is that called?

Malena:
It's called Mission Possible. There's a lot of misinformation out there and I really wanted people to be able to get the right information in a self-paced online course where they could sort of, you know, do it themselves. It is a lot easier to have a trainer hold your hand and do it for you. But not everybody is in that position to be able to do that. And I totally understand that.

Annie:
Well, it's a difference between working out on your own and having a personal trainer

Malena:
It sure is.

Annie:
Who wouldn't want a personal trainer?

Malena:
I know. And I do, I have a personal trainer for the gym at, well not right now, but you know, I know how to run on a treadmill and how to do sit ups. But my personal trainer definitely, sort of, sculpts what I need to do in a way that I would never do on my own. So you're right,

Annie:
And it's huge. That's huge. But one question that I'm getting over and over is what happens after COVID-19? And I have to go back to work. Is my dog gonna freak out? And I know there's not one answer to this question because every dog is an individual, like you've said, and every situation is different. But are there any like any action items people can start working on if they have a dog? Yeah. Tell me.

Malena:
I think there really are. Um, obviously if a dog has a predisposition towards separation anxiety or already had separation anxiety, this situation is or has potentially exacerbated that. But for those dogs that have never experienced separation anxiety or don't really have any sort of predisposition for that,I think that just keeping the dog, sort of, keeping the wheels greased. Ok? Taking out the recycling, taking a walk for 15 or 20 minutes without the dog. Having separation on occasion, minimally three or four times a week is going to make it a lot better for that dog. So they see and realize and experience that when you leave the house, nothing bad happens. And I think that will really, I think, I wish, and I have done several webinars on this in the last several weeks, I wish we could get the word out to people more broadly that if they were just doing some minimal absences with those dogs that never had separation anxiety before, we could keep them sort of tuned up, if you will, for their absences when people return to work.

The other thing that I would suggest though, there's a lot of daycares and dog walkers and pet sitters that have been significantly affected by this because they obviously have not been able to work. Get in touch with your dog walker or pet sitter or daycare professional now and you know, buy a 10 session package or whatever it is, because they will either make it through this or not, from a business standpoint, but if you can support them now, you will be on the forefront for, if you need someone to come in and walk your dog one or two times a day to break up that day, you'll be at the top of their list. And I really suggest that, and not just because they're economically being so impacted, but because I want you to be the one, you as the people we're talking to here, to be the one that's not scrambling when you go back to work and two days later you realize your dog really needs a couple of breaks in the day because he's kind of struggling. I don't want you to be on the bottom of somebody's waitlist. 

Annie:
Very smart. Where do you stand on medication? Uh, because it certainly plays into a lot of training plans. I'm sure.

Malena:
 It does. It does. And I will make the caveat that I am not a vet, so I can't advise on medications, making that caveat. So I can't actually advise on specific medications. But I do want everyone to know that, you know, after doing this for 20 years and seeing a lot of dogs on medication and a lot of dogs not on medication. Um, I am very pro medication and there's a great blog out there, by the way, by Dr Jennifer Summerfield that talks about the fact that this separation anxiety, and some other behavior issues too, it's sort of like a behavioral emergency, right?

So if you, if someone came into the doctor and said, “I've got this gaping wound that seems to be starting to get potentially infected.” Like the, the, the doctor wouldn't say, “let's wait until sepsis sets in before we give you antibiotics.” Right? Like, let's not just let the problem get worse and worse and worse before we intervene with medications. And I feel like using a medication, uh, for a separation anxiety dog can be a welfare issue, quite frankly. This is not something to mess around with it. I would, yes, I want to create, you know, management arrangements and arrange the environment. But I don't want that dog to feel that miserable ever, if I can avoid it. 

Annie:
The way I think about medication with dogs is that first we should try it and rearrange the environment as much as possible, but sometimes it's not possible in the amount of time that is going to make it so the dog doesn't keep having, you know,panic attacks. And also with some dogs, they are so stressed out or whatever you want to call it that, um, that there's not a lot of learning that's going to be happening.

Malena:
Anxiety inhibits learning it. Absolutely. We know that,that's not, “ oh, maybe if they're anxious they won't learn as well.” That is, like, it's been scientifically very well documented that anxiety inhibits learning. It's just the natural fact.

Annie:
So if you have a dog that is too stressed out. Sorry go ahead

Malena:
Right. And I love that you talk about the management aspect because I think from a tactical perspective, medication is part of management. Like we're managing the internal setting of events for the behavior, right? So it's just,, it is a management tool, but I think it's so important to relieve the potential suffering for these dogs. 

Annie:
Now and I just want to add that we have,and someone's mentioning Behavior Vets NYC, yeah, that's run by Dr. E’lise Christensen and Dr Andrea Tu.

Malena:
Oh E’lise Christensen is so great.

Annie:
And I think thank God for, you know, the handful of excellent veterinary behaviorists that exist. There are literally only something like 60 in all of the US and, um, it's a wonderful specialty. I give them so much credit, you know, it's really being like a psychopharmacologist for a dog, except, you know, a psychiatrist who specializes in medication can at least have a conversation with their patient about how they're feeling as, you know, whereas veterinary behaviorists are, are trying to figure this stuff out without conversations and with many different kinds of species at very different times of their lives. Anyway, I think it's an incredible specialty. 

And, I do know some people who are, you know, against giving dogs medication an or maybe, don’t think it's right for every situation. And I just wanted to give an example,  I don't think she'll mind me mentioning her. My friends Anna and her husband Alan, actually Anna Ostroff, she's one of our trainers, you know, they didn't want to go the route, at least, spray it away of giving their dog medication. She has severe anxiety about going outside and um, she's okay being left alone. They wanted to see what else they do and they restructured their lives in order to make it possible for this dog to not have to go outside on the city streets in New York city. They take regular trips to the suburbs where she can run around, she spends time out of town when they go out of town. Like she has the opportunities to be in less stressful environments. But when they are in New York city, they have a stroller for her. If they have to go outside, they have a backpack for her, they have to go outside. When they come see me, I live two blocks away, they'll drive so that it doesn't have to walk down the street. They have an indoor potty for her. And you know, like, in some ways like it might seem a little bit extreme, but like it's also just wonderful. I think that they have figured out a way to make her life possible. And I think that it's commendable.

Malena:
It is. It really is. And I actually have a blog on the top, I think it's 15. I can't remember now, but Top 15 reasons why people are not interested or willing or wanting to use meds. And I did a lot of research and took a lot of polls on, like my Facebook page and stuff, like that to say, you know, saying why,what are the reasons that you would not want to use meds? Uh, and the majority of the responses, even though there's literally those 15 very poignant individual reasons, the majority of the responses were, “I don't want to dope up my dog. I don't want to, I love my dog just as she is or he is, and I don't want a dopey dog.” And if I could even ever express to people that that's not the goal of medication, that is not, your dog should not be much, if any different on the meds. And if he is different, if he's really lethargic, although, you know, the first week or so, there's some transient lethargy on some of these meds, but if he's really lethargic or acting dopey, it's probably the wrong med or the wrong dose and it should be addressed, but being able to lower that anxiety just enough to be able to gain purchase on the problem.I think it's really, really huge

Annie:
Thoughts on CBD for pets in general.

Malena:
I do. Um, right now we do not have research on how CBD affects dogs. And quite frankly, we have not all that much great research on CBD for human beings. We have a lot of anecdotal information, uh, and a lot and quite frankly, a lot of positive anecdotal information from the human usage side. Um, but dogs actually have, I can't remember the exact number, but it's multiple, multiple, multiple times the cannabinoid receptors that human beings do. And while we all said, well, I would never give my dog THC because we know that that is harmful for them. Um, CBD products do contain some traces of THC and so I really feel like the research is way too preliminary. I don't think we're there yet. And I just feel that I want to be very safe with our dogs when we administer any product, you know, anything at all. Um, I want to be very safe with our dogs. And the limited research that is available does not show very much, if any, impact on anxiety related issues.

Annie:
I do want to say to anyone who might be listening, if you've considered giving your dog medication or if it's something that you've talked to your regular vet about, you should still really consider consulting with a veterinary behaviorist because I find many vets just don't know a whole lot about behavioral medication and veterinary behaviorists, like I said, they're not that many of them, but it's a huge difference in their training. And they can be very expensive. It can be very expensive to go to a veterinary behaviorist. However, I know, at least some of them we'll do phone consults, I'm sorry, some of them will do phone consults with a vet

Malena:
…the attending vet, correct

Annie:
And that can be at least a way to get, to tap into some of their knowledge. 

—question from viewer of live webinar–

How do you define success at a given point to progress in the training steps? Let's say that you're able to step outside the baby gate or door, whatever phase you're on, out of sight. The dog isn't whining or barking or anything, but body language wise isn't totally relaxed either. Good for you for being able to spot that.

Malena:
yeah, great job.

Annie:
Uh, lying, not on their bed, watching the door and not sleeping. Let's say he can hold this for 30 plus minutes. Is that a sign of progress, to progress longer or does that mean we should go back to a short time, like 10 seconds and progress only when the dog is lying on their bed and fully relaxing. What about a slight whimper and a down stay, but no other big stress signs? Where's the line of, okay, he's slightly okay. Keep progressing versus move too fast.

I would love to hear your thoughts on this, Malena. But I should say that whether we're talking about, separation anxiety or teaching, you know, a half decent sit stay, you can always go back to, Karen Pryor calls that going back to kindergarten, right? You can always, you can always toss your dog an easy one, no matter what it is you're training. And I think you should sometimes just to be an extra generous teacher.

Malena:
I so agree with you. We tend to be very generous and we toggle or , you know, randomize so that we get easy wins on a regular basis. And I think as you said so beautifully, being a generous teacher is important. Um, with regard to this specific question. I hate to have to do this Sydney, but that is an, “it depends”question. Um, so some dogs, and hopefully I can clarify this for you bit, Sydney, um, some dogs will yawn a couple of times and I know from my initial assessment or further reassessments, I know that that yawning will lead to whining and that whining will lead to barking and that barking will lead to howling. And so I know, okay, when I see those lip licks or yawns, that is the beginning of the downward trajectory for that dog.

Other dogs for 30 minutes, are sort of tolerating, or however long you, you mentioned 30 minutes, are just, you know, tolerating, maybe not yet relaxed, but they are doing okay. So it's really going to be very dependent on that individual. You know, work with the learner in front of you is the thing that, you know, we always hear from people like Susan Friedman. I'm very impressed that you noticed the body language. It's not, the body language is not totally relaxed either. And that I think is important to remember, but it's not about the individual session. It's about watching the trend within which the dog is progressing or moving. I say. So if today you do a 20 minute absence on the dog is,  you know, not, not barking, not doing all those things that isn't looking perfectly relaxed. Um, and if by next week you've got a similar 20 minute absence and you're like, look at that, she was actually relaxed for the first three or four minutes this time. Even then, even though she didn't stay super relaxed, loose, wiggly body language the whole time. So you want to see that trend moving in the right direction, obviously, as opposed to the inappropriate direction.

Annie:
Angelina says, “if you aren't using food as the associative property, when leaving the dog alone, what else do you incorporate instead of food, treat- dispensing toys, et cetera?

 I don't think you were saying food should not be used. I think you were just saying it's part of part of the equation or am I wrong?

Malena:
Actually, funny enough, I don't use food. Oh well, let me start out by saying food is the most efficient and effective medium to training dogs. And I will shout that from the mountaintops every day of my life. Um, but for separation anxiety, I do think it's very interesting and this is actually a long answer and soI don't want to take up everybody's time and go into too much detail, but I think what happens is that food, uh, oftentimes becomes just a distraction tool and that the Kong gets emptied and then the dog starts pacing, panting, whining, vocalizing, you know, doing whatever destructive behavior. And all we've done is delay the onset of the anxiety, even if we've done that, because some dogs are just equally anxious while they're eating, but they're so hardwired to eat that they will eat.

One of the things about instead of using food toys is getting our dogs really sort of bored with the process we should be creating, and this is also a long discussion, but we should be creating these exercises of say, 20 to 30 minutes a day comprised of, you know, 10 or 12 or 15 actual absences, or less, where we're coming and going. And the dog, maybe the first day is like, “uh, oh, what's going on? Why, what? Oh,” and then you return. And they're like, “yeah, that wasn't so bad.” Oh, and by like day three or four or 10, or whatever, the dog's like, “Oh, this is the stupidest game that mom plays. She keeps coming and going and coming and going. This is the most boring thing ever. I think I'll just nap or I'll just lie here and you know, just look out the window or whatever.” 

And that's our goal. And I will say there are very few times in the life of a dog or in dog training that where our goal is to bore the dog, but this is one of them where we want to bore that dog. We want it to be the most boring thing ever. And so I appreciate this question. I only reintroduce or introduce feeding toys,  at this point in time after the dog has learned to be alone for some appreciable amount of time. And even then, I don't know that it's perfectly necessary as long as they are enjoying relaxing and or, you know, sufficiently tolerating their absence. But again, use food for training in everything. Please. That is a mantra that I will never, ever back down from. 

Annie:
This has been wonderful. Thank you so much for talking.

Malena:
This has been really fun, thank you. 

Annie:
I've learned a lot. And Malena, I hope that we can talk again sometime.

Malena:
I think we should, I think we really should.

Annie:
You can learn more about Malena on her website, malenademartini.com that's D- E- M- A- R- T- I- N- I. You can also get 10% off of her Mission Possible course using the coupon code SFTD.

 

Notes and Links:

Use code SFTD for ten percent off the Mission: Possible course at MalenaDeMartini.com

Treating Separation Anxiety in Dogs by Malena DeMartini
Zoobiquity by Barbara Nattersion-Horowitz

Jean Donaldson's The Academy For Dog Trainers 
Karen Pryor Academy
School for the Dogs Webinars

Dr. Jennifer Summerfield: First line of therapy or Last Resort
Behavior Vets NYC
Dr. Christensen
Dr. Tu
The Medication Conundrum

Uke'n' Daddy's All By Myself by Irving Berlin